Using Exodus 34 and other passages, Paul DeCelles looked at the characteristics of God and the ways that discipline is an expression of love. He also talked about how love and discipline go hand in hand rather than being in opposition to each other.
Transcript
This document is a direct transcript of an audio recording, and may contain transcription errors and other minor edits for the sake of clarity.
PAUL: . . . Today Iâd like to talk about love and discipline.
The way we experience love frequently is as something that doesnât allow for discipline to enter our thinking about it. In a way, love canât take place without being accompanied by some form of discipline or training. Although, usually, when we think about it, we would see the two things as being opposed to each other. And thatâs why I want to talk about them sort of in the same talk, or about at the same time.
First, I want to talk about love. Before I begin doing that, though, Iâd like to remind you that we have already talked a lot about love, often in one of our other courses in the Community Formation Series, [and] I think also in Christian Living Series. And I wonât be repeating any of the material that we covered in there: talking about the different types of love and how you should love people differently depending on the kind of relationship that youâre in with them. I would suggest that this would be a good time for you to go and listen to that talk [sic] again. Orâwhoever gave that, whatever tape . . . you can get ahold of that. This would be a good time to reinvestigate that.
Iâd like to begin by reminding you that in the first talk, which was about two and a half years ago, in this series [laughter], I said that I would be talking about the characteristics of God, that the purpose of this series was to find out what are some of theâwhat is Godâs character? And then, in particular, what it is that weâre supposed to be like when we are like God. What is it that we imitate God in?
And I want toâIâve selected some various things in particular. Iâve talked about the fruit of the Spirit. Weâve chosen that as one way to get at the characteristics of God. So let me just very, very briefly tell you what I talked about last time.
What I talked about was how God made us as his sons and daughters, and how it is that a son and daughter is a person who can stand in the place of God the Father. And that what the Lord has revealed to us, as heâs revealed his character, his basic attid- âattributes, is that he is, to us, God, Creator of the whole universe, our Father. And that we owe everything to him. And that we ought to stand in awe and respect and gratitude when we regard God, who is our Father.
But weâre supposed to be sons and daughters of God. And that puts us on line with all the characteristics. Like, weâre supposed to be like God [just] like our children are supposed to be like us, if we have children. Which is a lot different from what we would expect from a dog, say, that we have as a pet in a house. We donât expect a dog to act like us, or to take on any of the characteristics that we have. Although [Paul and all laugh] I see some very human-looking dogs, with all kinds of neuroses that resemble human neuroses [Paul chuckles.]. But, fortunately, they donât belong to the People of Praise! [General laughter.]
So, what we were talking about was some of the godliness, or some of the characteristics of the things which make God what he is, or what are the innate characteristics of God, or âcharacter.â So we are talking about what God is like. And this talk is the first talk about a specific characteristic of God, and that is that he is a God of love.
And then, later on, Iâm going to talk a little bit about something which is apparently opposed to that, which is that God is a God of discipline. That God is very close to us on the one hand, and on the other hand, he manifests himself as being very distant from us: very far, and very much other than we are.
Letâs begin by looking at Exodus 33 and 34. Let me give you a little bit of summary of what has happened.
God has already made a covenant on Mount Sinai with the Jewish people in the desert. And a few weeks later, while Moses is gone again, they begin to wonder just exactly whatâs going on. And they begin to feel like theyâre pretty far away from God. Because, you see, they really didnât know much about God. God had not revealed much of himself to them.
And so, in order to get closer to a God that they could be close to, they made a golden calf. They wanted to have something that they could see and respect and admire and reverence, right there, [so] that there was a sign of God. In fact, it was a god to them. Which, as you know, was in direct violation of the covenant which God had just established with them on Mount Sinai.
So, the Lord was very angry. And Moses came down with instructions from God, and he orderedâhe corrected the situation. He put order in the situation, and he reprimanded the people. And then he asked God to forgive them. He asked God to forgive Israel. Now, God did forgive Israel. And he did it even though he had every right to destroy them.
God made them, and he had very gratuitouslyâon his own part and his own initiative, he had stooped down to make this covenant with the people at Sinai. And the people entered into it in a way thatâ[it] was remarkable, that God should make any kind of a bargain with the people, or a covenant, as we know it: an agreement. And then they turned around and violated exactly one of the very first things that God said that they shouldâmust never do. And he had every right to destroy them. Just as he had every right, in fact, to destroy Adam and Eve in the garden when they disobeyed him.
Now, Iâd say that the Israelites at that time probably expected to be destroyed. It was reasonable for them to think that God was like the gods that theyâd heard about from other pagan gods, that he was like a pagan God. But Israel didnât know God, and he didnât knowâthey didnât know what he was like.
And so you can imagine how thankful they were when God didnât wipe âem out after he caught them in what they had done wrong. So if youâin fact, what happened was that the Lord said to them then, âYou all donât understand what kind of a situation youâre getting into when youâre getting into this relationship with me.â And he said, âIn order to make it possible for you to have a fairly good relationship with me without causing a great deal of grief for me, which is going to cause me to be very angry and destroy you, Iâm going to separate myself from you. Because you all just arenât in shape to have me that close to you.â
And so, in a way, what he said in this section of the Bible was that he really wanted, out of his love for them, to be a little bit away from them, so that they wouldnât be violating everything, offending him all the time, getting onâyou know, out of line with him at every turn.
Moses then pleaded with God that he would not leave them. Moses wanted some more information about God. He said something like, âWe donât know you very well. Would you kindly tell us more about you, so that we can deal with you according to the way you are, and the way that you want us to deal with you? We acknowledge you as God. Weâre just . . . new at this.â Moses wanted a personal revelation, so that he could relate rightly with the Lord.
Now we need to be inâwe are in the same situation. Our God is a consuming God. He is the Lord God Almighty, Master of the universe. And he will not allow any false gods to stand before him. And the same God who had this remarkable relationship with the Israelites is our God. And we also need to know what the Lord is like, in order for us to be able to relate to him in the right kind of way.
So what happened was that the Lord passed before Moses. Let me see if I can find that very quickly here. I have all these different Bibles at home. Do you all do that, too? Itâs really helpful, because when you read one section in one Bible, and then you look at another Bibleâs rendition of it and, you know, if youâre not a great Hebrew scholar or something like that, at least you can refer to expert commentaries from numerous sources, different sources, and see how they understood these things and how they translated them. [Brief pause.]
Let me, say, read a little bit of [Exodus] 32, verse 11:
But Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, âO Lord, why does thy wrath burn hot against thy people, whom thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?â
That is, heâs saying. âDonât forget, Lord, that weâre the people that you got out here in this desert. You led us out of Egypt, and here we are. Weâre the same people we were. We didnât know you back then. We donât know you very well now, but weâre the same ones. So donât abandon us.â You know, itâs like, âYou got us out here.â
Why should the Egyptians say, âWith evil intent did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earthâ? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou didst swear by thine own self, and didst say to them, âI will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it for ever.â And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people.
So Moses destroyed the golden calf. [Brief pause.]
Letâs take a look, then, atâlet me just read some more of chapter 33.
The Lord said to Moses, âDepart, go up hence, you and the people whom you have brought up out of the land of Egypt, to the land [of] which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, âTo your descendants I will give it.â And I will send an angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey; but I will not go up among you, lest I consume you in the way, for you are a stiff-necked people.â When the Lord heard these evil tidingsâ[Paul interjects: âwhen the people, ratherâ]âheard these evil tidings, they mourned; and no man put on his ornaments. For the Lord had said to Moses, âSay to the people of Israel, âYou are a stiff-necked people; if for a single moment I should go up among you, I would consume you. So now, put off your ornaments from you, that I may know what to do with you.ââ Therefore the people of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments, from Mount Horeb onward.
Then Moses set up the tent of meeting.
Moses said to the Lord, âSee, thou sayest to me, âBring up this peopleâ; but thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, âI know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.â Now, therefore, I pray thee, if I have found favor in thy sight, show me now thy ways, that I may know thee and find favor in thy sight. Consider too that this nation is thy people.â And he said, âMy presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.â And he said to him, âIf thy presence will not go with me, do not carry us up from here. For how shall it be known that I have found favor in thy sight, I and thy people? Is it not in thy going with us, so that we are distinct, I and thy people, from all other people that are upon the face of the earth?â
How are people even going to know that God is with them? The way in which they have recognized God and others had recognized the Israelitesâthe Egyptians, for exampleâwas that they feared the Israelites because they recognized that God, their God, was with them. God was there with them in their camps.
And the Lord said to Moses, âThis very thing that you have spoken I will do; for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.â Moses said, âI pray thee, show me thy glory.â
[Paul interjects:] âShow me what youâre like,â almost like âshow me your image.â
And he said, âI will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you my name âThe Lordâ; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. But,â he said, âyou cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live.â And the Lord said, âBehold, there is a place by me where you shall stand upon the rock; and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen.â
And again, itâs like the Lord saying, âYou canât take it in the condition that youâre in, even you, Moses; Iâm going to protect you. I want to show you, but Iâm only going to be able to show you as much as youâre able to take. So Iâm going to put you over here in this cleft, and all youâre going to be able to see is my back after Iâve gone by. But thatâyouâre going to learn a great deal from that, that much already.â And he told him his name: âThe Lord.â
So the Lord passed before Moses.
Now, letâs read a little bit from chapter 34, verse 5.
And the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. The Lord passed before him, and proclaimed, âThe Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgressions and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the childrenâs children, to the third and the fourth generation.â And Moses made haste to bow his head toward the earth, and worshiped. And he said, âIf now I have found favor in thy sight, O Lord, let the Lord, I pray thee, go in the midst of us, although it is a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thy inheritance.â And he said, âBehold, I make a covenant. Before all your people I will do marvels, such as have not been wrought in all the earth or in any nation; and all the people among whom you are shall see the work of the Lord; for it is a terrible thing that I will do with you.â
So God listened to Mosesâs intercession, and he granted his request. He grants the favor because Moses interceded. That is to say, âThe Lord had compassion on us. Heâs a loving God. Heâs merciful, and he begins to show what heâs like.â Heâs gone throughâand this is what heâs revealed of himself. Let me read that again.
He said, âThe Lord, the Lordâ; that was his name. âA God, merciful and graciousâ; that is, thatâs what heâs like. Heâs âmerciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty.â
So, I want to focus on four types of words.
The first is âgoodness.â God is a loving God. Heâs merciful, and heâs full of goodnessâor, if you like, kindness.
Heâs âmercifulââor, if you like, compassionate.
Heâs âgracious,â or generous.
And he has âsteadfast love.â He is full of steadfast loveâor, abounds in steadfast love or faithfulness, a loyal caring for us, a love.
So I want to talk now a little bit about these words: âgoodness,â âsteadfast love,â âmercy,â âgenerosity,â and those equivalents that I gave you.
What God shows himself as, first of all, as one who is kind. He doesnât want to hurt anybody. Heâs not out to do bad, he is out to do good. And he wants to do good for us. Heâs full of goodness. He has the good of others on his heart. Everything he does, he does for our own good. He doesnât hate us. In order to manifest the goodness of God, what we have to do is be good for others and to others.
One of the revelations, then, of Godâs character is his goodness. And when we want to be like God, if we want to be his children, then we need to be good, full of goodness, having concern for and taking care of the good of all those around us. You can ask, when youâre doing things, Is this thing Iâm doing going to be for the good of the people that Iâm dealing with? Is this really for their good? Or is it malicious? Am I out to hurt somebody? Am I out to deprive them? Do I hate them?
God has no malice. Heâs all-powerful, but heâs not capricious. And everything that he does, he does for our good.
The second thing that the Lord shows is his faithfulness, or âsteadfast love.â Now, we talked about this some before. Another translation of it would be âcommitted love.â The Lord has entered into a commitment with us. He has committed himself. He will be loyal. He will be steadfast. He will be true to his word, and he will always love us. Thatâs what God is like in relationships.
He wants us to be the same way. And heâs taught us a great deal about committed relationships. We wouldnât be here, as a matter of fact, if it werenât for the fact that we had committed relationships with each other. In fact, you could say that itâs one of the things that people notice about us very, very much. Some find it immensely attractive. And some people are just very confused by it, because they look at us and they say, you know, âThis is a people, a committed people. Their commitment to each other goes very deep. In fact, we canât think of anything theyâre more committed to, unlessâexcept the Lord.â And when they look upon us, they see that kind of commitment. And when they see that commitment, theyâre seeing a characteristic of the Lord himself, which is his steadfast love and his faithfulness.
Itâs not a question of what we feel like with regard to our doingâour working out our love in a steadfast sort of way. Itâs very good, of course, to feel good about loving and being committed to the people weâre committed to. It is very important, in factâand Iâll come back to this a little later onâthat we really foster among ourselves a bond of affection, a real concern. Now, while we really do love each other and want to be with each other and,âlikeâ us, you knowâbut the thing which I want to emphasize here is that it isnât just because God likes us that he stays with us. Itâs rather that he has committed himself to us. We can count on him.
And thatâs the way it is, I believe, inâthat the Lord isâhas been teaching us in community about love: that we can count on each other. If we want to be sons and daughters of God our Father, then we need to be sure that we are committed to steadfast love, that we really are committed. Even when we fail and fall terribly and hurt somebody desperately, weâre still committed. Weâre committed to get up again and stay with them and love them and receive correction and discipline and move on with them. We have that kind of commitment. Even when weâre exhausted and tired, or perhaps just bored, and weâve gone through this so many times, and itâs not changing, and weâre still in this bad situation, and this relationship is lousy and this person is just never going to change, you know: even then, what we need to do is to say, âI am committed to this. The Lord God is committed to this, and Iâm going to be like him. I want to be like my Father who is in heaven.â We have to be like him. We have to be reliable. Reliability has to be one of our characteristics, not just capricious [sic] or when we feel like doing it.
The next characteristic in this passage Iâd like to talk about is mercy, or compassion. Now, what this means is that the Lord really feels for us. You know, he had compassion on the Israelites. He saw how stupid they were, that they didnât know anything about what was going on, and that they were frail, and they kept falling down, and they kept departing from his ways. But he really loves theâloves them, and he loves us. It’s part of his characteristic that God feels for us! He has a big heart, and itâs really on his heart to be concerned for us. He, you knowâhe has mercy on us, and he has compassion. He suffers with us. Heâs moved, deeply moved, by his childrenâs needs. Heâs like earthly parents. Or, I really should put it the other way around: earthly parents are like that, you know, with regard to their children. And how much more so is God, andâwho is our Father in heaven, like that?
As it says in Lukeâs Gospel, even parents knowâfathers know how to give good things to their children when they ask for them; how much more so, you know, is our heavenly Father like that! Look at how each of us, regarding our parents, has memories when weâd hurt ourselves, and they would cry, and it was so clear that they were more hurt by what happened to us than we were, you know? And frequently weâd find ourselves, you know, consoling them, you know: weâd get hurt, and we say, âWell, itâll be okay. Iâm fine. Look!â you know. And thatâs the way it is with the Lord, that he really suffers with us!
This is the end of side one. Please turn me over. [Laughter.]
It isnât only that God is steadfast in his love and committed. Heâs alsoâitâs not only that heâs dutiful. But he also feels for us. And we should be the same way. Itâs not a matter of doing what we said and gritting our teeth and getting through it, but itâs also being concerned for the people that weâre loving.
Now . . . the next attribute I want to talk about, or characteristic, is Godâs generosity. Or, if you want, âfavor.â Or the word that we would use to describe this is âgrace.â That is to say, thereâs nothing in us that warrants anything from God, except his wrath. Except what God gave us in the first place. We areâwhen we are good, Godâs good. He made us, and everything we have belongs to him. We didnâtâwe donât make ourselves; we donât even make ourselves good. We need to do good things. We need to follow the law, follow the Lord, live righteously. But everything we do, we do by Godâs grace.
All the good things that we have, like this meeting room, we get from God. And, you know God is really generous. Can you imagine that this year weâre spending less money on housing for the community than we spent last year? That is, this last year, since weâve been involved here and in the other sites that weâve been meeting with our branch gatherings, weâve actually spent less. The Lord provides for us all the time! He provides all these clothes we wear in this terribly cold weather. He provides us with a thaw that is fairly gentle so that nobodyâs getting washed down the street in their microbus [laughter]. . . . Which is a great blessing.
The Lord is very generous. And it isnât because weâre just so wonderful and lovely to behold, you know, and deserving all this, and that itâs only fair, you know. Thank God. Itâs not out of Godâs fairness that heâs dealing with usâthat Iâm talking about here.
God gives himself freely, and he gives freely. We donât deserve things we get, but he gives us these things that he gives us out of his love for us. And he does it graciously, gratuitouslyâI mean, freely. He does it out of the bigness of his heart. He likes to give things away.
Haveâdo you know any really generous people? Theyâre almostâitâs just remarkable. Itâs almost embarrassing sometimes to be around them, although sometimesâIâve been around some just immensely generous people who make you feel so much at ease that they. . . . Recently I was home in Kansas City, and my mother-in-law, who is a very, very generous woman. . . . It was a very sad occasion, because my father-in-law had just passed away. But what she did during this time of grief was characteristic of what she always did every time we went home. We would have to be careful to be sure that when we went home we would leave room in the car to bring back all the things that she would load on us. And what amazed me about it was that she always had more to give. It seemed like sheâas soon as sheâd give something away, sheâd have more there to give away. She gave usâsheâs given us so manyâand so did Mr. Crossâgiven us so many wonderful things. But in doing it, it was just some kind of aâyou really couldnât even refuse it, you know; there was no way you could refuse it. It was like, it was yours, you know. The sweater was âmine,â you know; it wasnât Dadâs. It was always mine, you know. It was made for you, you know. Itâs perfect. There was no thought of everâof returning it.
And the Lord is like that. When we ask the Lord, the Lord hears us. Because thatâs the way he is. He wants to give us good things. Heâs favorable to men. You know, thereâs a real quality in his being, which is graciousness, big-heartedness. And I think that God is making us âfavorableâ too. When we are favorable: when we show favors to people, when we give people favors, or when we show them esteem or honor, respect, when we do things for them [even though] they donât deserve it. . . . You know, in fact, we never even thought about it. Letâs justâyou know, like, just . . . big-heartedness. When we are like that, we are, in fact, taking on the grace that Godâs giving us, and weâre becoming like our Father who is in heaven. Weâre becomingâitâs like, God makes us âfavorableâ to others. He makes us have a heart which is generous and giving to others.
Let me read a little bit from Ephesians 2,verse 4.
But God, who is rich in mercy (okay? thatâs one of his attributes), out of the great love with which he loved us (thatâs his enormous love, his generosity), even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved (that is, freely on his part; he saved us) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of Godânot because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
So, from this passage, we can say that the death of Jesus himself came about because of Godâs love for us, of his immeasurable love for us, and his act of redemptionâhis purpose, Godâs purposeâwas to show the immeasurable riches of his love for us.
Now, I want to say a couple of words about a contrasting aspect of love, which is discipline. Now weâve talked on numerous occasions about discipline, and Iâd suggest that ifâI donât know where the tape is, actually, but thereâs a tape of a talk that I gave on discipleship, which I refer you to. Alice knows; Alice knows everything, Alice Imbelloni.
And let me just say a couple of things about the word itself. One is that the word that is translated âdisciplineâ also could equally well be translated as âtraining.â We usually think of discipline as a spanking or a deprivation, but it also isâcan be a more positive sort of thing, a positive formation. But it does often manifest a great degree of authority or responsibility in the relationship. That is to say, a disciplinedâa person who is in discipline is in some way being directed, or trained, by the person who is over them.
So I want to talk now about discipline.
What you see in this Exodus, chapter 34, verse 6, for example, is that God is by no means an indulgent father. There is a limit to what God will allow. He loves us immensely, but there are some things that we canât do and be in relationship with him. Theyâre out of the question. He will not abide with us. He would not be true to himself. He would not be right for us [?] if he were to allow us to be like that. Things that we do that are destructive of ourselves and others he canât allow. And he disciplines us.
Let me read that again just very briefly in Exodus 34, verse 6:
The Lord passed before him, and proclaimed, âThe Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty [Paulâs emphasis], visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the childrenâ
. . . and so on and so forth. This is to say, God is all these things that Iâve been talking about, and so many other things, that one would never be able to talk about them all. But he also is by no means going to âclear the guilty.â Thereâs no limit to Godâs loveâhe loves us without limit. But there is a limit to what he will allow. And he wants us to change. God is slow to anger, but God is slow to anger. He is patient, but he expects us to change. Now, how do these things go together with love?
It reallyâin order to understand it, we really have to see that the whole thing depends on the truth that our condition often makes a loving relationship impossible. Have you everâyou know, somebody in your household, perhaps, you know, gets into the kind of situation where they are simply impossible to live with, and they have to change? You cannot live together when they are like that.
Have you ever been like that? You know?
Ask one sitting next to you, perhaps! [Laughter.]
And what the Lord is up to is that, in order to be able to love, itâs al- âthere also has to be discipline. Because, when we get into the kind of situation where itâs no longer possible for us to be in a loving relationship with God or with one another, then heâs got to discipline us. And all discipline is unpleasant. Itâs experienced as something which moves us off the dime. It gets us out of the spot weâre in, into the spot weâre supposed to be in, so that we are, in fact, again in position to be lovable and to be loved.
God knows that itâs not good not to impose limits. And every mother or father who is here knows the same thing, that a child who does notâwho grows up without knowing what he can and canât do is a child who doesnât experience love, a child who doesnât understand love, who, in fact, feels terrifically alienated.
God wants to save us. He even laid down his life for us. He went that far. But there are limits. We are free, and there are consequences to the things that we freely choose. We can choose good things. We can choose difficult things to do for the Lord. We can choose right as opposed to wrong. We may be tempted, and we can choose to do the right. We may be under enormous pressure to do something wrong, but we can do right, because weâre free. Thank God! He made us that way. We really are free.
We can freely choose to love God and to be in that kind of relationship with him and with each other. But we also can freely choose to be out of that relationship, and be dealt with accordingly. Those who do the former go to heaven, and those who goâand then there are those who go elsewhere. Or some people, you knowâeverybody here knows thereâs hell, and weâre free to choose that. God really loves us. Heâs gone the whole way. Thereâs no question. Heâs pulled out all the stops to save us. But we can, in fact, choose to go to hell.
Let me look atâwith you at Hebrews 12. Letâs begin with verse 5:
And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? âMy son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.â It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
That is to say, youâve been treated like illegitimate children. That is to say, youâve been treated as though you had no parents. Itâs as though your parents were not around to take care of you. But if you want to have parents around to take care of you, youâre going to know that theyâve disciplined you, theyâve corrected you.
Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them.
Thereâs a lotâin the future, weâll talk more about all these things, butâbecause of the training that fathers have given children, and mothers have given children, the children have, in factâyou, we, all of usâhave done things for them [our parents]. We have served them in certain ways and given them certain things, and provided for them, for instance, in their old age. In order that andâthat is, weâve respected them.
Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good.
Itâs part of Godâs goodness, out of his character, that he disciplines us, that we may share his holiness.
For the moment, all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant. Later, it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
So, God calls us to righteousness, and he disciplines us toward this end. He orients us, he trains us; we deviate, he smacks us on the fanny. We move over here, and he says, âNo, you canât do that. You know, I told you a long time ago to get out of that situation, and youâre still not out of it.â And all of a sudden, the situation goes sour on you, and you say, âOh, boy, you know, this is terrible. I should have left this job a year ago, like he told me to in the first place. I should have gone on to this more difficult task with more responsibilityââor whatever it is.
The Lord moves us forward, and it can be painful. Our inclination is to want to beâto give generously. But sometimes itâs not the right thing to do. Sometimes people will ask you forâyou know, âI wantâIâve got to haveâanother drink. Iâm not going to make it through the night, Iâm going to die now, if I donât have another drink.â Itâs not love to give that guy another drink. The loving thing is to smash the bottle, pour it down the drain, to restrain him even. A loving thing would be, in fact, to remove that problem from him. Although, in the end, a man is free to do what he wants to do.
Itâs not always the right thing for us to give generously. We should forgive, but we should not forgive too quickly. And itâs possible to forgive too quickly. Have you ever been in a situation where you have been responsible for someone, perhaps one of your children, whereâor for who, whomeverâand time and time again, they do the same thing, and they turn around, and they say, âWill you forgive me?â
And we say, âWell, the Lord said if theyâveâif theyâve sinned against you seven times seventy times, you should forgive them.â So you say, âI forgive you.â Nothing happens; they donât change. The next day they do exactly the same thing. Itâs really not a bad idea to say, âI really want to forgive you. If you show me some signs of repentance and some sort of activity on your part that indicates that you really want forgiveness, Iâll forgive you. But this little charade weâre going through isnât doing you any good, and itâs falsifying forgiveness. And you think you can get away with murder and turn around and just say, âForgive me,â and Iâm supposed to say, âI forgive you.â I want to see some change in you.â
Have you ever done that? I did that to some people. I mean, not all at once. I have, like, with children, on occasion had to do something like that. And it was really a shock. Because, you know, âI thought you were supposed to forgive me. I thought all I had to do was say. . . .â Itâsâyou know, âIâve done this thing to you, and Iâm really sorry. Itâs such a terrible, terrible thing, butâthatâs too bad. But will you forgive me?â You know, âSo what, if I hit you in the head with a frying pan in the middle of the night,â you know, âand youâve got that big lump,â you know? âIâm really sorry about that.â [Paul laughs]. âWill you forgive me?â I think Iâd like to sleep through a nightâjust one night, you knowâbefore I would forgive them. [Paul and all laugh.] Wanna make sure it doesnât happen again!
That can beâthatâs notâwhat Iâm saying is, Iâm not trying to keep people from forgiving people. The purpose of it is to move people in such a way that they get out of doing what theyâve been doing, this wrong. And also that there is some kind of justice involved, some equity. Some things demand a kind of âmomentâ of change, some evidence, and some proofs of real repentance. Some things should not be forgiven so lightly, in order to bring the person all the way around for their good, not for their harm.
Now, I want to conclude by just saying that thereâs no way that we can love too much. Thereâs no limit to the kind of love that we can give. If you want to love more, love more. Pull out the stops. We canât be too affectionate. No parent has ever spoiled a child by being too affectionate. Parents have spoiled children by being indulgent, by not disciplining them. But thereâs no limit to how much we can love, and what kind of aff- âand how much affection and kindness we can show one another. So I really urge each of us, with each other here and with everybody whom we love, to just âtake the cork out of the bottleâ and let some of the fragrance of the affection we have for each other show. Come on out! It really helps. Itâs very, very good. But part of it also is to beâaccept the responsibility, if you have that responsibility for someone, to train them and to discipline them and tell them what the limits are.
 In order for that to work right, we need to know who weâre responsible for, or when weâre responsible for something, and when weâre not. If weâre responsible for bringing the child along in a certain area, then we have to, in fact, be alert to the discipline, and the affection. If weâre not, then we donât have that. You know, grandparents are always telling you that: how wonderful it is to haveâIâm a grandparent, you know. Can you believe that? So young and all. Anne is too young to spoil. Andâanyway, the point is that itâs impossible for grandparents to spoil grandchildren [Paul and all laugh], because the responsibility at anyâmy point is that the responsibility for the discipline of the child is on the parents. Itâs not on the grandparents, by any means, in the same kind of way. And so thereâs all kinds of freely flowing affection there which you can just let out, and itâsâthatâs a wonderful thing.Â
Let me conclude by turning to 1 John, chapter 4, and verse 7:
Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God; for God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us (this is howâthis is how it was shown to us): that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us (he showed us how to love, not because we love him in return, but because he loved us), and he sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins (to lay down his life for us, to save us. Thatâs why we know that weâre loved by God; thatâs how he has shown us such great love). Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides. . . .
[Recording ends here.]
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