Chris Vieck illustrates the personal conversion necessary to be ready to listen to one another in group discernment.
Transcript
This document is a direct transcript of an audio recording, and may contain transcription errors and other minor edits for the sake of clarity.
[Applause.]
CHRIS: . . . Good morning!
PEOPLE: Good morning.
CHRIS: I wanna start this morning with a healing story. So . . . I thought that would be a good way to start this off. . . .
So this actually happened in 1985 in Peru. So there was a Catholic priest in the Dominican Republic, Fr. Emiliano Tardif, and he had a huge healing ministry that took him all over the world, andâso he was in Peru at one of these big assembliesâand there would be, like, 10,000 people that sometimes would come to these, looking for healingâso he . . .
The very first word of knowledge that he got was thatâhe said: âRight now, the Lord is healing someone who is crippled and canât walk!â And then he said in a loud voice, âRise, and walk, in the name of Jesus!â . . . and no one moved. And he was puzzled by that, but he saidâhe thought, âWell, Iâll give some more detail.â He said, âRight now, the Lord is healing the paralytic! And so you will know who is touching you, that the Lord is really healing you, he is sending a mild heat and trembling through your legs. Stand up, in the name of Jesus!â. . . And no one moved.
So, he decided to move on, and he had, you know, more words of knowledge, andâyou know, âThe Lord is healing someone with severe back pain,â andâyou know, âThe Lord is healing people of skin diseases;â and they were all confirmed by miraculous healings.
And at the very end of the session, he hadâthere was one last word of knowledge. And he said, âThe Lord is opening the ears of a deaf person!â [Man in audience laughs.] And right at that moment, the guy in the wheelchair jumps up and says, âI can hear! I can hear!!!!â [Laughter and clapping.]
Yeah. So, ever after that, he prayed first for the deaf. [Laughter.]
[Chris chuckles.] Uh-huh. So, this talk is about listening. [Chris and all laugh.]
So, I wanna start with a story about Kathy, who is one of our neighbors, and her storage unit. So she and her teenage daughter were being evicted, and she asked us to move her furniture out into this storage unit. And the unit cost $60 a month for the first six months. And then after that, it went up to 120 a month.
So, eventually she finds another place, and she and her daughter move in . . . but they donâtâyeah, so they just didnât have enough room for their stuff, so it stays in the storage unit. And that money is likeâthatâs 20% of her income all by itself, just to pay for storage, and she doesnât really have much income!
And I just thought, âThis is just a waste of money! I mean, itâs just furniture, itâs stuff! This is not a good situation!â
And Kathy and I would talk about her situation; I mean, it did not make sense to me. I thought she shouldnât be spending money to store stuff and then not be able to pay her rent or to get food. Though somehow she seemed to always make it through, pretty much; it was awfully close.
And several times [Chris laughs slightly], I . . . suggested that maybe she could sell some things and not spend money that she doesnât have on a storage unit, and then she wouldnât have to stress about how to pay the rent, or to go to food pantries for her food. Itâs only stuff! You canât eat it, you canât live off of it. . . . And I did wonder, like, Why does she value these things so much?
And sheâd told me many times that her mom, who is deceased, had nice things. And she seemed proud of her mother for that. And it was mostly her motherâs things that were now in that storage unit.
But Iâd think, Well, if theyâre nice, you could get some money for them! [Scattered laughter.] So why not sell them and pay the rent? And if only she could be more detached from her stuff! She was just too attached! And Iâd come away from these conversations really frustrated, because she was also then stressing about money.
And so, at one point, she was telling me, you know, her financial worriesâyou know, how to get through the monthâand again, I suggested that she considered selling some things: âActually if you sell enough, you wouldnât have to pay for the storage unit, and then youâd be able to pay your rentââyou know, et cetera.
But remarkably, in this attempt to get her to reconsider, I was able to hear her.
So at one point, with tears welling up in her eyes, she said to me, âMy mom had nice things. Chris, I have nothing. I donât want my daughter to have nothing when she moves on. This is all I have to help her get started. I could never . . . replace these things.â
And I was stunned. For Kathy, this was about being a good mother! She wanted her daughter to have the best things that she could offer her. She wanted her daughter to have a better life than sheâd had. So all of this was about her desire to give good things to her daughter! It was about her concern for the continuity of her family. I was shocked. Like, wow! That just put everything in a new light for me.
So, thatâs a story about me not listening, and judging, at first.
Listening means a lot more than just hearing the words coming out of the mouth and repeating them like a parrot. Also, listening isnât just listening so that I can hear when youâve stopped talking, so that I can say my piece [scattered laughter from the audience].
Oh, sure, I was listening to her! I mostly heard that she was having trouble paying her rent; she was having trouble getting food; I heard her say that her motherâs things were nice and maybe worth some money. But I wasnât hearing what she was really trying to tell me.
So I did learn from this that listening involves trying to find out what the world is like for her. Itâs about bigger and deeper things than I think I normally hear.
Kathyâs world included her love for her deceased mother, and caring for her things. Kathyâs daughter . . . was her world. At one point some years before this, Kathy and her daughter were homeless. But Kathy did everything she could, and she was able to keep her daughter in school and keep the two of them together through that whole stretch. That was no small task.
And Kathy was seeing further into her future and her daughterâs future than I was. I could only see the immediate problem. I did not hear the hope that Kathy had for her daughterâs future. I didnât hear her willingness to endure hardship for the sake of her daughter. I didnât hear Kathy telling me that love hopes all things, believes all things, endures all things, and that love never fails.
So . . . Group discernment begins with listening to each other, with the goal of understanding both what is being said and the reasons behind it, with the intention to do something about it.
Iâll repeat that. [Inaudible comment from audience. Chris says quietly:] Yeah! [Chris and others laugh.] Group discernment begins with listening to each other, with the goal of understanding both what is being said and the reasons behind it, with the intention to do something about it.
So, in my story . . . One more time? Okay! [Chris laughs softly. Indiscernible sound from audience.] Slow it down? Okay.
[Chris speaks slowly:] Group discernment begins with listening to each other, with the goal of understanding both whatâs being said and the reasons behind it, with the intention to do something about it. So the goal is understanding whatâs being said, the reasons behind it, and an intention to do something.
[Long pause]
So, in my story, itâs clear that for some time, I was not really listening to Kathy. I assumed I knew what was going on with her. But clearly, I did not. I learned from that also that listening requires patience, kindness, and perseverance. I thought I had figured out what was going on, and I was impatient to get on with it.
Assuming that I know whatâs going on, and what someone else needs, is the opposite of listening for understanding. So I judged Kathy, and I did that for a while. And it was a mercy of the Lord that I could be open enough to eventually hear Kathy and see things from her perspective.
Judging is the opposite of listening. And listening is essential in any group discernment. In fact, if itâs missing, if we arenât hearing each other, itâs impossible to do a group discernment. We need to listen to the Holy Spirit, and to each other. And without that, we canât discern what God wants. A groupâa time of group discernment or consultation is the time to listen: to listen, and allow others to speak. Itâs the time to give them plenty of room to say what they think.
And I need to listen closely enough to your point of view that I could make your argument for you. I will say that one again, too: I need to listen closely enough to your point of view that I can make your argument for you. So, like with Kathy, when I started really listening, I could make her argument for her.
Now, I donât have to agree with you! It could be that I totally disagree with what youâre saying. But I must get to the point where I know it, I know what you are saying well enough that I could argue it for you. And if I canât do that, I have not yet listened well enough.
And if I canât make sense out of what youâre saying, then I need to listen more. Until I can finally hear you say that passing the good things your mother left you to your daughter is more important to you than the financial stress of renting a storage unit and trying to get [sic] food pantries for food. So when I finally listened to Kathy, really listened, I got a much richer, deeper, fuller, and really, a deeply moving picture of what had been there all along!
So when we listen to each other, we do get a much clearer and richer picture of reality: whatâs happening, whatâs going on here, what the Lord is doing.
So, every day, at the end of a mission day, we get together and we debrief about the encounters that we had in mission that day, and we talk about what just happened. Like, what our neighbors said; what we saw. And we go over the whole encounter as a team. Soâand even when itâs three missionaries who were all part of the same conversation, we hear what each one has to say about the encounter. So we talk about what each one heard and saw, and it fills out the picture. But it requires a lot of listening. It takes some time.
So we do aâyou know, âWhat did you hear?â [chuckling].
âWhat happened there?â
âDid you see the guy in the kitchen who was listening the whole time?â
âNo, my back was to the kitchen.â
You knowâso, retelling the stories, and getting everybodyâs input on it, and hearing their part of it, really fills out the picture, so we can reflect on it, and pray about it, and see what happened there. What was the Holy Spirit doing there? And how should we respond? So we get a clearer, richer picture by talking about it together . . . and listening.
So the purpose of this first question in our discussions after each talkââWhat did you hear?ââis to help us grow in our listening skills. Like, how many of us have heard things in our discussion groups that we had missed in the talk? [Chris and all laugh.] Right?
So [inaudible], Suzanne, at our table, said, âWhen we put it all together,â she said, âI think we make the equivalent of one good stenographer!â [Chris and all laugh.] âCause it takes all of us to really sort through, âWhat did we hear?â âWhat was missed?â
So, anywayâso, this next story is not about a group discernment event, but itâs an example of talking, and of listening. So . . . we had a Thanksgiving harvest partâpotluck with our neighbors at the end of the farm season last year . . . in Evansville, which is where I live. So, we wanted to give thanks to the Lord together and thank our neighbors, too, because they contributed over $4,500 in donations during the farm season, praise God! So actually, it pretty much pays for itself now. As long as you donât include the free labor. [Laughter.]
Butâitâs a group event where we had invited our neighbors to shareâand they did! And they shared! They shared about their experience of coming to the farm stand and of,
âWow! I can come, you know, during COVID!â
âThe food was so good, it was so cheap, and I would come and get food for other people. . . .â
And theyâlike, they were sharing kind of personally, actually, in this . . . crowd, and, like, they knew they would be heard!
We even sang; they sang with us! Now, thatâs aâin some ways, thatâs at least as big a deal. So we sang, you know [Chris sings]: âThis little light of mine, Iâm gonna let it shine/ this little light of mine, Iâm gonna let it shine!â
Soâyou know the songâso then they started calling out verses! [Laughter]
So Miss Janice is like [Chris sings again]: âAll around the farm, Iâm gonna let it shine!â And everybody joins in [laughter].
And then Jamie says [Chris sings again]: âAll up in my house, Iâm gonna let it shine!â And then we all sing that.
And then Irvin yells out [Chris shouts out loudly in a deep voice]: âWay down in my soul!â [Laughter, then Chris sings]: âWay down in my soul, Iâm gonna let it shine!â
And then finally, Michelle says, âIn my neighborhood!â [Laughter. Chris sings again]: âIn my neighborhood, Iâm gonna let it shine. . . .â
And I just thought: they trusted that they would be heard!
And this was all very encouraging to us, because we saw that by the grace of God, we were in an environment where people felt safe, and ready to share.
We want to hear whatâs on our neighborsâ minds and hearts. We need to hear whatâs on our neighborsâ minds and hearts. We need to hear from the least of these.
By the way, thatâs true everywhere. Thatâs true in our homes, families, in our life together in the People of Praise. . . .
We canât make a good discernment if we donât hear from everyone.
So, whenever itâs a group setting like a prayer meeting or a potluck, and our neighbors feel free enough to speak up and address the whole group, itâs a huge encouragement to us, because itâs a sign that weâre where the Lord wants us to be, that weâre in a âgood spirit.â
âWhen you listened to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you listened to me.â
So we have a problem if weâve created an environment where the humblest, the poor, the elderly, the children . . . are afraid to speak, where theyâre not heard. Our discernment is incomplete without them.
âDo nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves.â Thatâs Philippians 2, verse 3.
And I find that this kind of listening requires humility, and an openness to being surprised and changing my mind. It often involves repentance and conversion.
I had to repent, and convert, to see things from Kathyâs perspective, âcause I had a problem. I was valuing money and common-sense decisions about money, even Kathyâs money. I want to be responsible and practical and . . . you know, successful, I guess. But Iâm viewing all this from my perspective. And, worse yet, Iâm judging Kathy!
I had a log in my eye! That experience of my anger and frustration was an indicator that I had a log in my eye! When thereâs an experience of friction and we start to get angry, thatâs a sure sign that weâre not listening to each other. So we need to listen to each other, so we can catch the log in our eyes. And when I catch myself judging someone, I need to stop! And remove the log.
So, yeahâI wanna share about a decision-making process that we went through in Evansville some years back, to start an urban farm. So, we started this farm in Evansville because some of usâespecially Carrie Johnson, a sister in the People of Praiseâshared her heart for growing food for our neighbors. She wanted to plant a garden on the vacant lotsâand there are a lot of vacant lots, because the neighborhood had been tearing down, you know, derelict houses, andâso thereâs plenty of land! [Chris chuckles.]
Butâand she had some experience with working with a neighborhood garden, and she was really interested in us doing this together!
And, at first, the idea did not really appeal to me. Somehow I thought it just seemed, like, not realistic that we could pull this off, or probably not what we should be doing with our time. You know, weâre missionaries, you know; this is farming, and . . . Anyway. . . .
So I would sort of listen and smile when she talked about it, âcause personally, I like gardens and farmsâlike, I grew up on a farm in southern Indiana; we grew potatoes, corn, soybeans, raised hogs. . . . But still, I was not so sure about the idea of investing a lot of time in gardening. You know, once you tear up . . . grass, youâre . . . committed [laughter].
And . . . so, anywayâso thatâs what I thought at first. Andâall this was just going on in my head. I hadnât really made up my mind on anything. I knew I needed to hear more. So, I think it was really helpful that I kept quiet for a bit.
And as Carrie continued to share, and I kept listening, I found I was being moved by her vision! It was growing on me! No pun intended [General laughter. Chris chuckles.] And actually, Iâm sure that it really helped that I love Carrie.
And I know others shared too about this, but I really donât remember who else talked about the idea. But I do remember, what stuck with me were Carrieâs words and her heart for it, which she shared really well.
And listening was key for me in this, because it was somewhere in the listening to what Carrie and those other nameless others were saying that I experienced catching a vision, and my heart being movedâandâto start growing things together. And now, actually, itâs really hard for me to imagine that there was anâthat there was ever a time I wasnât interested in this.
So then, we consulted with our neighbors to find out what they thought about this idea of us doing a farm. And we did our best to listen to them. And gradually, it became clearer and clearer to us that growing food on these lots was on the Lordâs heart. And the farm has turned out to be one of our most important connections with our neighbors.
So, look at that! It turns out, itâs a great thing for mission! [Laughter.] You know, whoâd have thought? Not I, you know!
Itâs also turned out to be a great thing for us as a community.
Actually, somebody just texted me. Today is our first farm stand, and theyâre out there harvesting right now. And a guy rode by on a motorcycle, and he just yells, âThank you, Jesus! They have greens for me again this year!â [Chris and all laugh.] Yeah.
Soâbut itâbut the farm has really turned out to be a great thing for us as a community. Weâve grown closer to each other, working together most Saturday mornings out of the year. So there is a lot of sharing that happens, I mean, almost like a womenâs group or something, as you are together for three hours, you know, harvesting beans or transplanting collards, or weeding. . . .
And itâs also a great outreach that each one of us is involved in. So even 11-year-old Caleb Sullivan serves as a greeter at the farm stand, and he works on the fields before the opening of the farm stand. So, when the season is over, we really miss it. We miss that time together. And we miss the time with the neighbors.
So, itâs an inspired work! I mean, thereâs no doubt in my mind that it was an inspired idea that Carrie had. And it came from a group of people listening to each other and just sharing whatâs on their minds and hearts. And then the Holy Spirit coming through in that process.
And we also consulted with our neighbors about what to grow. And . . . they said we should grow greens! Collard greens, mustard greens, turnip greens. Okra, and green tomatoes. Soâand thatâs most of what we do. Last year we grew 3,500 pounds of greens. We grew 125 pounds of okraâyou know, little bitty okra! [Chris and all chuckle.] And we grew 800 pounds of tomatoes total, and 140 of those were green, and were a hot item at the farm stand.
Soâand one of our neighbors told us, âYou know, it means a lot to the community here that you are growing food that African American people want to eat.â
I mean, so here we are: weâre a bunch of white people working on this whole thing; but the Holy Spirit, through and in our neighbors, helped us to see, and God gave us the grace to listen. And actually, weâve become fans of this food ourselves. So, thanks be to God.
So anyway, finally, itâs just important to remember: In all this, what weâre looking for is what we want to do, which may or may not be what I want to do.
And itâs not just waiting for them to tell me, or us, what to do. But rather, what do we want to say? What do we want to do?
[Recording ends here.]
Copyright © 2022 People of Praise, Inc.